That or he grew vengeful over that. It can go either way. He targeted white women and in particular seemed to have a hatred of blonds.

It looks like we’re quibbling over labels here. I agree that classic narcissism as defined in psychology is an identical concept to Second Handing, but calling it “self-centered” seems bizarre to me because narcissists entire “selves” come from other people. There’s no “self” to be centered around. But I think whatever we want to call it, we both agree that classic narcissism is a dependent state which is absolutely unhealthy to say the least.

Mark McGreevey,

Interesting information about the Chinese norms and culture. I admit, however, I see little evidence of these norms PERVASIVELY effecting Elliot. He never really mentions them, although I don’t see him as having much shame over his Asian heritage per se (certainly he doesn’t seem to demonstrate anti-Asian racism, at least from what I read in the text). He credits his father with providing most of the norms he believed in. I’m sure some of the Chinese stuff got in subconsciously, and many of these norms are compatible with upper-class-British ones (hierarchical class system, for instance), but going by what was written, the Chinese norms seem to be rather mitigated in their impact.

Her upbringing was completely immersed in old traditional ideas of placing the male well above the female. Such an ideal in a Chinese mother transfers directly to the eldest son in particular, since it is through him she hopes to attain any status and greatness in her later years. It must have been a series of terrible blows to her Chinese female ego when her “aristocratic” husband Peter Rodgers did not always do well, when her son exhibited mental illness and introversion from a young age, and when her husband then divorced and expelled her, with a new girlfriend from Morocco arriving as a live-in within two months of her expulsion.

The blow to a Chinese mother’s ego can make her a real tiger. The determination to focus on the son grows when the husband takes a concubine, in old China. She knew she was an outsider in USA or England and especially when no longer employed or married, simply living off alimony, and as an Asian female she was not of any high status here.

All this is skimmed over in dealing with Elliot’s own self-abdigation, but surely he saw her disgrace and her depression, and he lived with her. That was a powerful message, and with it, he grew to despise his Asian half, as weak and unwelcome, in a nonAsian enviornment.

I think that if she had taken that alimony money back to Malaysia, she could have lived in luxury with her kids and they would both have high status and plenty of friends, good schools and so on in an Asian enviornment. But not in USA!

Which is a pretty chilling expose of cultural relativism. It puts that discipline into some perspective. But I can’t see how they could do anything else, how they could hope to actually treat people without accepting those patients’ cultural norms.

What I am really saying is that the line between individual and community is vague and gray. The individual is really not the independent, free-floating monad that is our cultural norm, the representation of this part of reality our culture has developed for itself. The line between individual and community is as much a convention as is the line between the individual organism and his environment – microbial, chemical, etc.

“I question this. Surely a disorder is a deviation from the human norm, not merely a cultural norm.”

I understand this position and do believe that there can be disordered cultures. But my position was taken because that is the position of the American Psychiatric Association when they wrote the entry for NPD. The behavior must not be normative for the person’s stage of development, cultural environment, or due to substance abuse or a medical condition. it must also be stable across time and consistent across situations. So a person could meet all of the criteria for the disorder, but if it is normative for the culture, they would not be given the diagnosis. Personality disorders and some other types of mental disorders are based on deviant behaviors. In order for a behavior to be deviant, it must be deviant from some established behavior. A cultural norm is the established behavior that is used in this case. That is not necessarily an endorsement of cultural norms, but it prevents individuals from being diagnosed with mental disorders based on behaviors that their culture believes are acceptable.

Agree.

“Second, I am talking about a mental disorder which by definition cannot be part of the culture. It must be a deviation from the cultural norm. ”

I question this. Surely a disorder is a deviation from the human norm, not merely a cultural norm. Is there any reason why an entire sub-culture cannot deviate from some human standard norm?

The problem with your definition is what to do when cultures have opposing norms. Which norm is deviant then?

Yeah his narcissism was extreme even for his culture, but it would have been off-planet bizarre in other cultures.

I recall a stray comment someone posted after showing a comment thread on Ampersand or some similar blog to a friend in Singapore. That friend’s only reaction was that all the commenters on that thread sounded like they had personality disorders. That’s a comment on a culture, not an individual.

I just re-read your comment and your analogy to a parasite fits perfectly with the narcissist. Rodger was dependent upon others, but for what he could suck out of them, there was no thought at all about what he could bring to a relationship. That is why I call it self-centered.

“It went far BEYOND being concerned what others thought of him; his entire ego or sense of self was dependent on it.”

Here you have practically quoted the DSMs definition of NPD. A narcissi8st will be completely reliant on others for a sense of self-esteem Rodger was definitely that in the extreme. The reason this is self-centered is because interpersonal relationships are entirely one-sided. They are used for his benefit and no one else. Narcissists lack the ability to empathize with others and relationships lack (emotional) intimacy and are self-serving. Rodger based his entire self-image on what others thought of him. He shows no empathy, no care or concern for the needs of others, or what he could do for them (how they could benefit from a relationship with him). It doesn’t get more self-serving than that.

@Ginkgo

“But it is a mistake to make narcissism all about individual personalities. Whole cultures, such as Hollywood or corporate upper management, can operate on narcissistic principles.”

You are correct. But the reason I make it all about the individual is twofold. First, we are talking about an individual; Elliot Rodger. Second, I am talking about a mental disorder which by definition cannot be part of the culture. It must be a deviation from the cultural norm. But from a social standpoint you are right, some cultures can be narcissistic. Rodger was a part of one of these cultures, but his narcissism was extreme, even for Hollywood.

“To the Second Hander, a life without the validation and/or acknowledgement of other people is an unspeakable horror, and (as the saying goes) the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. The Second Hander’s entire sense of self-worth is critically dependent on others in some fashion; everything ultimately revolves around what other people think of them.”

This describes Hollywood. this is the engine of performance, why performers work themselves so unmercifully. The whole industry is built on this, and that’s the community he came out of.

TDOPM says this is classic narcissism. It sure aligns with my very intense experience with a narcissist. But it is a mistake to make narcissism all about individual personalities. Whole cultures, such as Hollywood or corporate upper management, can operate on narcissistic principles. There may be a biological component to narcissism, but a narcissistic culture will generate accommodative narcissistic behavior in people without those biological traits. I have seen both – one asshole “love-of-my-life” (or so I thought at the time) was a real narcissist, my ex-wife was a normal person raised by parents, one of whom was a narcissist and the other raised by a narcissist. The differences are profound but a lot of the behaviors are quite similar.